The Return Of The 8 Bits?

In this article, I’m going to explore the idea that the 8 bit home computer not

In this article, I’m going to explore the idea that the 8 bit home computer not only had a great deal to offer the prehistoric early-humans of 1985 but that it may also have a place in the modern world; perhaps, there is something that we can learn from it. Having identified the laudable, worthwhile elements of this class of machine, I’m going to make some suggestions towards a scheme that would embody these characteristics in the form of a machine that would have a place within the modern world.

Introduction

I would term the sort of modern desktop computers that people use to run operating systems such as Windows and MacOS as ‘workstation’ class machines. In common with many of my generation, I cut my computing teeth in earlier era and on an earlier generation of computer.

In the evolutionary chain, the 8 bit microcomputer sits after the house-sized mainframe and the affordable mini-computer that cost more than a car and before the current era of cheap, commodity hardware workstations. To make further use of the evolutionary analogy, as a link, the micro computer is a missing link; like some clever primate precursor of modern human beings, it both enabled the development of and helped to define the nature of its successor. In turn, that successor, having greater fitness within its environment, superseded its progenitor, having rendered it irrelevant.

I mentioned evolution and I think that the comparison between the evolution of living things and trends in the computer market is a reasonable one. When a new idea enters the computer scene, it has to find its niche – it has to pass the test of fitness within its environment – or it quickly dies off. There is a sad aspect to this process, as a creature, or a computer, that was once successful is killed off as soon as something more successful comes along.

The other thing that brings about the death of a species of living thing is the evolution of the environment in which it fights for survival. When all of the trees die or are used up, the creature with specially adapted tree climbing faculty becomes less viable than the similar creature that didn't need to climb trees.

The microcomputer: what was good about it?

Reasons for the decline of the micro

The fact is, as the 8 bit home micro was once a commercially successful class of computer, it must have had some worthy qualities. Yet, beyond a few ‘enthusiast’ collectors, few still run or own this class of machine. The microcomputer made the transition from being popular to being a collectors rarity in a relatively short length of time and this change of fortune must have had a cause.

I would attribute the decline of the microcomputer to two causes:

Firstly, better machines came along. After the 8 bit era, came the 16 bit era. Sixteen bit home computers such as the Commodore Amiga and early PCs also occupy a now extinct link in the evolutionary chain. A difference between the two eras would become apparent if you were ever to sit down with an 8 bit micro and a box full of tapes; you might find it interesting to toy around with. In contrast, a 16 bit mac or a 16 bit PC just isn't going to be as interesting to play around with and that's because it is merely a cut-down version of the machines which superseded it. To prove this point, I submit that you might be able to sell or give away almost any 8 bit computer, while, in contrast, a typical 16 bit machine is doomed upon its discovery in an attic; once discovered, its next stop is the fate that every high-tech piece of equipment fears most: landfill.

The second cause of its extinction was related to fitness: the world in which a computer has to survive has altered since the heyday of the 8 bit micro. These days, for a computer to have a place within a home, it must provide features like a GUI OS with multi tasking, multimedia capabilities and network connectivity.

In addition to these baseline features, the contemporary computer user expects to work within a uniform user interface. Some attempts were made to retro-implement the GUI features of later OSes back onto the 8 bit machines, but in general, a typical microcomputer offered one program loaded at once, and each program would have its own unique take on how a user interface should work.

What would it be like to try to get through a typical day with an 8 bit machine?

Although the 8 bit micro might have had some meritorious features in it's day, as I sit here now, I don't find myself wanting to swap my Ubuntu box for my old BBC Micro. In the same way, if a person without much money and who wanted a computer, approached me for advice, I’d try to set them up with an PC that was a couple of generations behind the curve. Such machines can often be had for free or very cheaply. I certainly wouldn't set such a person up with an old 8 bit machine.

Ease of use: the ‘You shouldn't have clicked on that!’ factor

The idea that an 8 bit home computer offered a greater ‘ease of use’ than a modern GUI equipped desktop workstation might, at first, seem to be a counter-intuitive one. If you have ever instructed a person who doesn't have much experience with computers, it can be a challenge to explain concepts such as drive letters, folders, hardware drivers, managing overlapping windows and installing software. Barriers such as these can be particularly frustrating in the case of a person who just wanted to ‘write a letter’ or ‘send an email’ to a relative.

Compare this to the experience of a person using an an 8bit micro computer: On such a machine, launching a program might consist of switching the machine on with the appropriate cartridge inserted, or pressing a key combination with the right software tape in the tape drive.

Saving the current document might be a be a carried out with sequence such as:

Such a piece of software would not be as flexible as its modernequivalent and it would not suit most power users, but for the person who isn't particular interested in computers and just wants to complete a tasksuch as ‘writing a letter’, it might seem simpler.

It's also worth noting that complexity had started to creep into the 16 bit era of home computers. Today's typical ten year old is just as familiar with the operation of a mouse as he or she would be a football, but back in the late 80's, a GUI interface might have seemed a bit daunting compared to ‘press F4 to save’.

Modern GUI applications feature keyboard shortcuts but it's difficult to explain to the person who had remembered the right key combination for ‘save document’ that, unfortunately, they clicked the mouse in the wrong place and the word processor application had lost focus. Further more, as a result, they have unintentionally mucked things up by using those key combinations in the wrong window.

"Oh, and by the way", you add, "that bit that said, ‘Click here for important information about your mortgage!’, you shouldn't have clicked on that."

It's not just day to day application use that suffers from this insidious inflation of complexity. Maintenance of a computer system presents a constant cycle of small hiccups for the even the expert user too. These hiccups are, unfortunately, baffling and insurmountable to the non computer savvy.

Surely, most people reading this have been in the position of trying to get someone else's old Windows 98 box back up and running for them? In such a situation the person that you are trying to help can't help but look unimpressed when you tell them that ‘for some reason a driver seems to be corrupted’ and that ‘it just doesn't seem to want accept the proper drivers and crashes at start up for no apparent reason’. Who doesn't feel a utter fool when telling such a person that you’re going to have to reinstall because it's quicker than trying to track down the minute, obscure inconsistency that is causing the problem? "Oh, by the way", you add, sheepishly, "you’ll loose loads of your settings and I’ll need about an hour and half to to track down all of the drivers for all of your hardware".

Things like this just didn't happen on an old Spectrum 48k. You switched it on, put the tape in, pressed a key combination and pressed play.

This highlights an important difference between the 8 bit era and the current one. Modern machines have evolved to a level of complexity that has pushed them, beyond being a mostly deterministic system, to a level at which even an expert can be surprised by the outcome of his or her actions.

Low entry cost

During their first wave, the 8 bit home computers were, for many, representative of the only game in town; it was the only piece of general purpose computer hardware that the average individual could afford. However, following this era, there was a period in which the 8 bit micro continued to thrive alongside the flashier new wave of 16 bit computers. This was largely due to the cost. A class of person who just couldn't afford to spend a lot on a new computer might still have been able to buy and feed an old 8 bit computer.

The model that most manufacturers of 8 bit machines adhered to was one of creating a baseline, standard machine and to stick to that specification throughout the life of the product. Add-ons were available for the 8 bit micro but there was no real upgrade cycle as such. A few years after the purchase of the machine, one would still expect have access to the latest piece of software. Occasionally, a software company would attempt to impose a requirement of some extra memory beyond that of a baseline, entry level machine, but in general, the users themselves would be resistive to such attempts.

Reliability of the software and hardware

Updates to the operating system itself would be a rarity. The operating system in most micros was incorruptible as it resided in the ROM of the machine.

The hardware itself would typically possess a robustness through merit of its simplicity. Upon opening the case of a typical 8 bit machine, expect to find a single motherboard with chips and other components soldered to it, a few connectors for various expansion ports and a ribbon cable connecting the keyboard. In addition, in order to keep the machine simple, many machines of this class featured an internal power supply. No fans. No moving parts.

Such a machine would typically be cheap yet not as fragile as a PC. Drop such a machine down the stairs and there is a good chance that it will still work. The designers of these machines knew that they might be stored under a teenager's bed until pressed into action. It had to be as hardy as a teenager's other possessions.

The expectation of the user from such a machine would be that the machine could be ready for use about five seconds after it was powered up. No drivers. No updates. No conflicts.

Other features

Other admirable qualities of 8 bit machines include:

A proposal: The modern microcomputer – the Neomicro

The design goals

At this stage, I hope that I have established two points:

This begs the question: how can we gain access to merits of the microcomputer without suffering its shortcomings?

I propose that some of the conceptual goals of the microcomputer could be re-approached with the application of modern technology. A new machine could be created that embodied some of the admirable qualities of the classic microcomputer while, at the same time sidestepping some of its shortcomings. We’ll call this design, the Neomicro.

At this point, it should be apparent that the conceptual ‘neo-microcomputer’ cannot fully embody the advantages of both the classic microcomputer and the contemporary workstation because the intention behind both classes of machine conflict with one another. The modern workstation is designed to be a general purpose machine that can be adapted to just about any type of computing task and it is impossible to support this level of adaptability without an accompanying increase in the level of complexity.

The Neomicro is to be a casual use computer with low barriers to access. The barriers to access are lowered in this case through a combination of low total cost of ownership and simplicity of operation. In a way this limitation – of singular design ethos – is a blessing because it frees the design from a need to compete with the workstation class machine. This is a relief as it would be impossible to create a machine that was both cheaper, less complex in operation and yet as powerful as a modern workstation.

Here are the design goals of the project:

Reliability of software and hardware

This could be achieved with a fixed operating system and a fixed application suite. Hardware reliability could be increased through simplification and design decisions that avoid use of moving parts.

Ease of use for non-experts

What features do people need for a ‘simple computer’? What features aren't necessary?

Low entry and maintenance cost

Again, this can be achieved through stripping the hardware down thebasics.

Fast boot up and shutdown

It's difficult to see how a general purpose computer could have the kind of almost instantaneous boot up that was the norm for an 8 bit microcomputer. PDAs manage this but that is because they never really shut down. In typical use, they just go to sleep when not in use. Making our modern micro project work in such a way imposes a number of complicated restrictions on both the expected usage patterns and the hardware design of the machine. Making the boot-up simply ‘fast’ in comparison to a typical workstation is a necessary compromise.

The machine itself – part 1 – the hardware

In specifying the machine, let's start from the outside and work ourway in:

The form factor

The form factor of the Neomicro is inspired by the classic micro computer form factor; the ‘one box’ design is ideal for our purposes. A detachable keyboard would only add to the difficulty of setup with no obvious benefits. The professional writer or office worker who needs a full sized, standard keyboard isn't part of the intended market for the neo micro; such a user would be better served with standard office workstation.

Any decrease in the number of components is a win on a machine of this type. Remember, this is a computer designed for the casual user, it might be stored under the couch when not in use.

To take this concept further, I shall specify a built in laptop-style mini joystick in the middle of the keyboard. A graphic designer or DTP expert might need a proper mouse, but again, they are not part of the intended audience for this machine. Along the top of the computer keyboard a row of dedicated function keys, similar to the the multimedia keys on some keyboards or the dedicated applications keys of a PDA.

Although this isn't a modular computer, it will feature expansion/connectivity capability. These expansion ports are placed along the back of the machine.

Internal hardware

A fast processor isn't a necessity for the type of applications that the Neomicro is designed to run. An ARM processor running at 400Mhz would be sufficient for our application. Such a CPU can be paired with a graphics chip-set that features hardware decoding of MPEG and some ARM designs actually come with such functionality integrated into the CPU. For our purposes, beyond a 400mhz CPU to ramp up the CPU speed win us less than adding dedicated MPEG hardware decoding.

Such ARM chips also support fanless operation, which is another design win.

64 or 128mb of main system RAM should be enough for this computer. That might not sound like a lot but by making a careful choice of window manager and software, it is possible to build a usable Linux based machine with 128 megs of RAM. Such a machine would still be a general purpose machine and overkill for this project.

Storage

We will give the machine 1 meg of internal flash based storage. This contains the OS and a small amount of user storage space. In addition, the machine will feature a pair of memory card slots. This provides additional user storage space, while at the same time enabling the user to make his or her data portable.

The second memory card slot increases the connectivity of the Neomicro. As I’ll specify in a moment, digital photo management is another possible application for the Neomicro.

The Neomicro shall feature no optical drive. This saves some money and some mechanical complexity. Optical drives also conflict with the ‘no moving parts’ design goal. Some might argue that the utility of being capable of operating as a DVD player would be a mark in the Neomicro's favour but its worth noting that the DVD playback capability wouldn't get much use if the machine didn't have a remote control. In short, as stand alone DVD players are so cheap anyway, the design cost of adding an internal optical drive is greater than the benefit to utility.

Connectivity

This machine isn't a general purpose machine; therefore, we include the sort of connectivity that is almost certainly going to be used rather than the sort of connectivity that will probably not get used.

The USB port on the back of the machine is for connecting devicessuch as a digital camera.

Unlike a classic microcomputer, we have no need of an RF out slot that connects aerial socket on the back of the computer because most current TVs have at least a composite video input.

The machine itself – part 2 – the software

The software requirements of this projects can be divided into two parts: the application suite and the operating system. For our purposes, an OS can be further subdivided into two parts: the base operating system and the front end. For this project, the user should be unaware of the base level of the operating system.

To ensure maximum use of financial resources, the smart thing to do on a project of this sort is to make use of existing software. This principle applies to both system and application level software.

Before specifying either the user interface or that application suite, we have to arrive at a determination of what the actual application requirements of this machine are. In other words, what will people be using this computer for?

Here are some application ideas:

The operating system – the GUI

We’ll start at the top, the part of the operating system that users will interact with.

The for the last 20 years or so, the ‘desktop metaphor’ has been the dominant conceptual force in user interface design. Unfortunately, as outlined above, novice computer users find many aspects of the typical GUI confusing.

And it's not just novice computer users either. The PDA is a technological device that has had to evolve in a way that maximises its utility. When on the phone to a colleague, who needs some contact or schedule information, one doesn't want to boot up, find the appropriate application in a menu, load it and then maximise its window. When using a PDA, you simply, press the contacts or agenda application button and instantly have access to that information.

I think that this is a point that Palm got right fairly early on with their line of PDAs: they asked themselves the questions, ‘what applications do our customers need?’ and ‘what information do they need to be presented with by each application?’. With such a PDA, rather than spending a couple of minutes to dig up the required information, one expects to have the information within a couple of seconds.

It should be obvious, at this point, that, in terms of concept, the PDA and the Neomicro have quite a lot in common. They both offer the user a similar approach: a specialised interface optimised to run a few key applications. Having identified the design requirement imposed by the expected usage of the Neomicro, I think that we can take some inspiration from the layout of the PDA user interface.

In place of dedicated application buttons, we can use a task-bar along one edge of the screen. All applications are loaded at start up and are always present on the computer. As each application runs full-screen, this is a tabbed user interface.

The designers of PDA interfaces perhaps had the limitations of both processor power and small screen size in mind when they decided to eschew the concept of overlapping application windows. However, I suspect that, in adapting to these hardware limitations, they stumbled onto an important user interface truism: I consider overlapping windows to be a power-user feature that only serves to confuse and slow down the novice.

The keyboard of the Neomicro, would feature a pair of dedicated ‘nudge’ buttons to move up a task or down a task. There isn't much to be gained from forcing the user to actually select the applications on the bar with a pointer.

‘click, click, click’ moves us from the email application to the web browser.

‘click, click, click’ back to the email application.

That seems like a model that the novice could understand and use, particularly with complimentary visual and perhaps even audio affirmation of where they were and where they were moving. Some types of application work best with a multi document interface. For our design, this means that the user will move left and right between application but also up and down to move between documents.

Perhaps, a similar interface could be applied when switching between the links or text entry fields on a web site? How about a pair of dedicated buttons to switch between entry fields on a web page? The ‘select as you type’ link selection of Firefox could be made good use of here. The standard mouse control via the pointing device can be resorted to as a fallback on those occasions when the website layout and design don't allow selection by other means.

The application suite

I envisage five or six applications. As stated before, these applications are loaded at the beginning and always present.

The text editor

The activities of notepad, email and word processor can be combined within a single application. A menu choice moves you between three different modes. Once the user has learnt to send an email, it's a small leap to see how he or she could have saved that document, locally, to make a note or print that document out in order to send a letter. There is no need to separate word processing, note taking and emailing into distinct applications; when a person wants to work with text, they use the text editor.

The web browser

This would be based upon one of the established rendering engines. Perhaps a one of the standard browsers could be stripped down and placed in a permanent kiosk mode? Bear in mind, however, that the browser is going to have to be fairly lightweight.

The browser would, of course, make use of the dedicated function keys in place of the icon strip and pull down menus that are feature on standard, desktop browsers. So, instead of clicking on the back icon, the user presses the back button. Similarly, to find text on the page, the user presses the find button.

The web browser: web applications

As discussed above, the text editor is a program with a single set core functionality that works as an enabler to broader functionality. The web browser should be utilised in the same way. Web applications can be used to extend the application functionality of the Neomicro. We can create a web portal to enable access to the extended functionality of web apps. Perhaps a fee based, function unlocking service could be used here.

Educational applications are an area worthy of exploration. Web applications, specifically tailored to the syllabus of a given course, could be created. For example, in the case of an introductory computer programming course, in which BASIC is being used as the teaching language, the Neomicro could be extended with a simple development environment for BASIC programming. It would all be wrapped up in the consistent, easy to use environment of the Neomicro.

The key to making a success of such educational functionality would be to liaise with educational establishments to discover what sort of software their courses require. As with the other points, it is essential that the Neomicro pick its battles, rather than going head-to-head with desktop PCs. For a user pursuing, for example, a Computer Science degree, a standard desktop PC would be a more appropriate tool than the Neomicro.

Casual Gaming

‘Casual gaming’ is the new buzz-phrase in the world of PC game development. Casual gamers, as a group, consist of both traditional non-gamers and lapsed former gamers who can no longer make the necessary investment of time required by deep, cutting edge gaming culture. Things like fishing simulations, computerised realisations of card and board games and gambling games are the type of game that interests this new, emerging group.

To the sort of person who lies awake at night, worrying about the shader performance of their graphics card, the gaming pallet of a "casual gamer" might seem a bland one but the market has spoken and these people are a rising power in terms of their influence on game development trends. It would be impossible for our machine to compete directly with either a decked-out gaming PC or the latest console but casual gaming could be a valuable, under-exploited niche for our machine. Nintendo can attribute much of their early market success in latest round of the console wars to their focus on traditionally un-catered for groups of potential gamers.

In practice, gaming would be an application on the task-bar. Games would be installed via the Internet. An important economy can be made here as art and other assets from a previous generation of game development could be reused. A slightly souped up version of Doom would be within the capabilities of the Neomicro, while perhaps piquing the interests of our user base.

The operating system – the baseline operating system

The most obvious choice at this point is to use Linux as the operating system. Generally, when people talk about ‘Linux’, they are actually referring to Linux (the kernel) + gnu user tools + X11 + desktop environment + whatever else the distributor has added to the distribution. Hence, a typical desktop Linux can be quite resource hungry. However, properly specified Linux also has a proven track record of offering services within a restricted resource environment such as on mobile phones or media players.

An opportunity for RISC OS?

A more left field suggestion would be to use RISC OS as the underlying OS. For those who are unfamiliar with RISC OS, I wrote an appraisal of the OS last year

Like any OS, RISCOS would need need to be customised to support the Neomicro design goals. The main customising work would centre around:

RISC OS has in it's favour:

Incorruptible

Whatever the OS chosen, it should be as incorruptible as possible. To this end, if it boots from flash media, the flash disk should be partitioned and the core OS files stored on the read only partition. Another partition exists for user data and some OS workspace.

In conclusion

I have set out for you, a specification for a machine that caters for a class of user and a class of computer use that is all but neglected these days: the unemployed person; the elderly person who would like to have a go with this ‘tinternet thing that they had heard about and send emails to relatives; the person on welfare, who would like to pursue an IT course; the family man who doesn't have any free time these days, but who would like to dabble with computers in the way that he had in his youth.

For person with a desktop machine, the Neomicro could be an adjunct to that machine that fills some gaps in his digital life. As such a user can connect the Neomicro to his existing network, it could occupy a conceptual space similar to that of Apple's new iTV device but somewhat more computer than dedicated media.

In short, anyone who wants to simply plug in and play around with a computer, without installing software and drivers, upgrading to keep up with the requirements while trying to remember which cable goes where might be interested in the Neomicro.

About the Author:As a ten year old, Mike once connected the audio output of a Casio synthesiser to the analog joystick port of a BBC Micro. He then wrote a BASIC program that displayed the sound waveform on the screen of the computer. Looking back, there was no real hope of normal development into a non-geeky adult. Read about his ongoing geeky writing and music projects on his website.

I’ve got a car boot (trunk, for Americans) full of used 8051-based mobos if you get serious. But by the sound of it you want to re-invent the Internet Appliance. Good luck, it died.

haiqu

Casio synth? Sheesh, I used to connect my Stepp synth guitar to a modified Fairlight Series II and play the sound of elephants through it. Weirdness is.

It is still amazing what a RiscPC can do with less storage and slower processors than say an iPod.

Some people see an eco-positive in the slow processor speed and it is a fair point.

It certainly makes for a cool ‘N quiet computing experience.

This is not always how RISCOS users felt, they had their glory days when the StrongARM was first released going from 25Mhz to 200Mhz in a single bound.

This is something you can still experience by purchasing a StrongARM RiscPC on ebay and running it for a month with the CPUs cache turned off. (F12 followed by *cache off) Then just turn it on and feel the raw power.

This is why I think that the RISCOS machines would be even more fun, if the ARM processor was a lot faster.

While I personally wouldn´t use such machine in any shape or form, I could see my parents learning their way into computers using something like this. I definitely liked the special keyboard buttons to swap "applications" and those tied to the webbrowser thing.

But I´ll have to agree with the first poster that something along these lines has been tried before with little to no success and therefore you would be hard pressed to find investors willing to put some cash into a project around this concept.

But it was a good read nonetheless. Thanks a bunch!

Let's see what's available at the moment:

there's the OneChip MSX: http://www.bazix.nl/onechipmsx.html

essentially an MSX computer, but with OS hardware, using VHDL to implement most stuff. Still 100% MSX compatible in its basic form. But with VHDL this could turn into a superMSX (or any other machine that is developed in VHDL of course)

Then the OS.. hangon, there's something brewing in the 8bit world as well. and it's called "SymbOS": http://symbos.de/

A very nice window like environment.

And oh, wait.. yes, you CAN play MP3s already. oh wait, internet is also possible, there's only a lack of a good browser. And other stuff as well.

You may be surprised how far people have come, with just 8 bits. The saying is still true: Big fast computers breed lazy fat programmers. 8 bit rules 🙂

Edited 2007-04-18 12:01

Yeah… I guess this proves that its not the size of your data bus that counts but how you use it 😉

Let's see what's available at the moment:

there's the OneChip MSX: http://www.bazix.nl/onechipmsx.html

Then the OS.. hangon, there's something brewing in the 8bit world as well. and it's called "SymbOS": http://symbos.de/

A very nice window like environment.

And oh, wait.. yes, you CAN play MP3s already. oh wait, internet is also possible, there's only a lack of a good browser. And other stuff as well.

You may be surprised how far people have come, with just 8 bits. The saying is still true: Big fast computers breed lazy fat programmers. 8 bit rules :-)Edited 2007-04-18 12:01

Your bring some very good points to the table. Next time let's try it without the sarcasm

I wasn't actually being sarcastic on purpose. Now I read my own post, and see it can be read like that indeed. Not intended. The "oh wait" was more an exclamation on "look, this is possible as well… hangon, look a bit deeper.. that too" etc etc

hmm. On so little pixels, they really should not have tried to emulate the Win9x+ style GUI. Perhaps more familurarity than anything, I way prefer the more appropriate interfaces of Epoc-based systems or the PILI/etc. OS that the Sharp ZR-3000/5700/etc. ran. Windowing is mostly futile, sufficient cut-paste support basically eliminates the need on such cramped space.

Oh wait, now you have a messed up OS with overlapping windows, complex UI, all like in modern OSes, but on 8 bits computers !

Still, where are the DVD playback facilities, USB printer, digital photo editing ?

Kochise

Hell, the Commordore 64 w/ GEOS can do all the that.

Has all that ex/ DVD playback. Damn I miss the old days!

All that is called the RISC OS PC… From Castle.

Okay, with a couple of change, all-in-one design and remove the HDD and put SD slot, remove the optical drive.

Or a Commodore 128 with built-in GEOS with network, browser and mail. Add USB and SD slot.

Wow, that looks fun. I started out on MSX in 1983, brings back memories. Well, maybe those memories are a bit pink-tinted in retrospect, but still.

It's a nice bit of retro-computing, but a bit expensive though.

Funny, I was pretty curious about this article until the author started his proposal. That’ s when I gave up, because these where my first thoughts:

Let's see what's available at the moment:

there's the OneChip MSX:

http://www.bazix.nl/onechipmsx.html

Probaply the author has no clue what a MSX is, so let’ s check out Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSX

Never too old to learn (even about retro computing) 🙂

Of all what you described, an eMate would have fitted the bill quite nicely. The newton OS was very easy to use. With modern enhancements, it would have been a killer simple computer. Maybe an open source Newton OS would be cool, running over a linux kernal.

Why oh why Steve??!!!

"kernel"

sorry. pet peeve

It's called mini-ITX VIA Epia (all integrated hardware, no driver conflict, well supported) with a Knoppix distro (stable, reliable, multitask, simple GUI, uncorruptible)…

Kochise

/* It's called mini-ITX VIA Epia (all integrated hardware, no driver conflict, well supported) with a Knoppix distro (stable, reliable, multitask, simple GUI, uncorruptible)…

, they make good computers for cars; I have one insatalled in my dashboard running linux.

Edited 2007-04-19 06:43

I think I’m one of the few who would actually use such a machine. It would make a fun change from my Mac right now, especially in terms of development. Writing programs for these tiny things is so much more fun than browsing the Cocoa or Qt documentation to see which overloaded function to use.

I’ll listen to some MP3 music: not a chance.

MP3's? You can use the tape deck!

Edited 2007-04-18 13:03

>>MP3's? You can use the tape deck!

Haha nice one .. though can you actually buy a cassette tape these days, cant remember the last time i saw a C90 in the stores..

how many do you need ?

To quote from the article's introduction:

In this article, I’m going to explore the idea that […] to there is something that we can learn from [8 bit home computer].

Oh, we can always learn, from any "obsolete" or "archaic" device, especially basic knowlegde, but we can also see the value of the devices we use today (and tend to treat them very quickly like garbage). The question is: Do we want to learn something? As most of the OSNews reader surely know, investing time to learn something is considered a burden, especially if it's about anything that has to do with computers, how they work and how you use them.

Having identified the laudable, worthwhile elements of this class of machine, I’m going to make some suggestions towards a scheme that would embody these characteristics in the form of a machine that would have a place within the modern world.

We often do concern things "modern" that have been invented in and used since the 70s… multiprocessor… ECC RAM… direct access storage device… serial bus… oh yes, oh joy so very modern… 🙂

>>As most of the OSNews reader surely know, investing

>>time to learn something is considered a burden,

>>especially if it's about anything that has to do with

>>computers, how they work and how you use them.

I dont know if i agree with that, Surly an OSN reader would find the learning aspect of something not previously known a pleasure or excitement and not a burden, or indeed they would not be here in the first place as we are all techies that thrive on new stuff .. or if you meant the average Joe user that OSN readers know then probably agreed, i have met too many users in my time in my profession that huff and puff when you try to teach them something ….

Edited 2007-04-18 21:59

"[…] or if you meant the average Joe user that OSN readers know then probably agreed, i have met too many users in my time in my profession that huff and puff when you try to teach them something …. "

Yes, I targeted my statement towards these friendly types of human being. 🙂

Most average users (such as Joe Q. Sixpack and Jane Average) assume others to have every special knowledge available possibly needed in any situation. They do not conern reading something by theirselves, such as man pages, howtos, procedures or even a list of commands you type. So, they do not learn basics. If something changes in program layout, they’re lost, for example, if the menu bar is a different colour. Even if one of us (wearing the famous t-shirt that says "No, I won't fix your computer!") take the time to teach them to help theirselves, they don't want to listen or to read. The reason seems simple: it needs time, their time, but they do not consider the knowledge they can get as important to fill this time. In most cases, the time needed to learn something and then to use it is less than the time needed (by others!) to workaround the knowledge not present. In my opinion, this was different in the "dark ages of computing". There it was completely normal to learn things in order to solve a certain tasks. As you know from reality, and because people like car analogies, you need to visit the driving school in order to gain basic knowledge about how to drive the car (practical elements) and which rules apply in the public traffic (theoretical elements). This enables you to get more and more experienced, driving more safe, more efficient, better. And now I may translate this to today's Joes and Janes: They sit in their cars, don't know how to start it, and shout they want to drive to a certain place. If you show them how to drive, they complain about having no time. 🙂

Usually, this won't apply to OSNews readers because I consider them educated enough to know the value of learning; this is why they visit OSNews, I assume. In other cases, they would read ComputerBILD. 🙂

"Compare this to the experience of a person using an an 8bit micro computer: On such a machine, launching a program might consist of switching the machine on with the appropriate cartridge inserted, or pressing a key combination with the right software tape in the tape drive."

My 8bit was a Morrow Designs "Micro Decision", with a 4Mhz Z80, 64KB of ram and floppy and hard drives.

It ran a special multiuser version of CPM, and could run three WYSE character terminals at once!

I’m saying that to make the point that there is nothing intrinsically simple about 8bit. Make a new 8bit computer with lots of memory and people will add multitasking OS, GUI, drivers, H264 playback , and it will be no ‘simpler’ than any other.

What I would like to see is a *very* low power portable 8bit with a black and white lcd screen, a bit like the Tandy 100. The Tandy had 20 hours battery life and was very reliable. I’d like to see how efficient a computer built with the same simplicity and low clock speed would be today. Perhaps a modern version would have a battery life in the order of weeks….

glad to see that im not alone in my thinkings. maybe i should trow the author a mail or something so that we can share toughts…

That was a fun read killermike – thank you. I’d certainly be interested in such a computer.

As I was reading the article I was thinking "he's describing Palm OS", and then you drew the analogy yourself 🙂

I agree that there's something to be said for:

* Instant on / off (no 20 secs to boot).

* The simplicity of full screen apps.

* The simplicity of being able to launch applications via hardware buttons, clearly labelled.

* The benefits have having an incorruptible OS in a ROM chip.

So long as such a device was cheap, had a decent size screen, and a good input modality (keyboard plus mini joystick like you said), why the hell not?!

If you could work in integrated wi-fi, a good web browser and email client, it could be cool.

* I want to go on-line to look something up and check my email: just about impossible.

* I’ll listen to some MP3 music: not a chance.

* I’ll write an article: just about possible. I hope that they accept submissions on 5.25inch floppy disk.

There is a cartridge called MMC64 (SD/MMC interface) that can accept Ethernet module [RRnet] or MP3 player module http://www.hobby.nl/~commodore-gg/innovatie_mmc64mp3_eng.htm

Now, the MMC64 has its own interface, you can read text files, maybe its possible to edit them (and save directly to mmc).

As for the email. there is CONTIKI http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contiki

🙂

Indeed it can. In fact there are operating systems written for C64 which can do just about everything mentioned in the article.

The problem with the C64 is that it's not manufactured anymore afaik (though there is a diy guide floating around the net) and the fact that it's no longer supported [I don't mind that, but I do mind having to dig through e-bay to find a power supply].

There's a good point in the article, as in — a lot of things could be done on an 8-bit CPU, only so much cheaper. I’ve seen the description of Palm OS in there, too, but an 8-bit laptop would come at a fraction of the price of a PDA. And think of the battery life, too.

I really meant it when I said I’d use such a thing. I never thought laptops would need to be some sort of a home cinema — allowing me to edit text, check my e-mail and write dirty little hacks would be enough, and hell, I can already do that on a 386.

Those C64 DTV's (joysticks with built in C64), are a full C64, you can open it up and there are solder points to add a keyboard, disk drive and everything else. :3 It's a ready-to-hack box.

I do most of my work away from my main PC on a NEC Versa P/75 with 24mb of ram, 800×600 screen, running debian linux on a 850mb hdd

who needs speed ;D

Then we could go to 8-bit bit slice and build machines based on multiples of 8 bits. Just like in the 1980's with the 4-bit bit slice machines.

The scary part is that:

1. With the IDE64 (up to 128GB I believe), you can hook up a CD-ROM and a hard drive to a C64 at a low price. I hope the V4 comes out soon so I can use REL files and run a BBS with it with TCPSER.

2. With TCPSER (from Jim Brain) or TCPSER4j, you can hook a C64 up to a PC and have it "dial out" via Telnet to other systems.

3. With Contiki, you can have access to a web browser.

4. There's also the Singular web browser (linked from http://www.c64.sk) that has CSS support.

4a. There's also HyperLink for the c64 which can read WAP/Mobile web pages.

5. If you expand the scope to include accelerated C64 systems running the SuperCPU, you can include POP3/SMTP mail, IRC, text-mode browsing from a Linux box, and a few other nice things using WINGS (http://wings.webhop.org). I believe you can also save files to .PS or .PDF format, and I know for a fact that you can print to a laser printer from Wings (one of my old friends had it set up to use LPD).

5a. I believe you can do text-mode IM from a Linux box as well and have it show up on a Wings box via a terminal.

6. The only truly modern uses I have seen for the 8-bit systems that don't look like a Medusa when you’re done have been the Cidco MailStation (which runs a Z80 chip), and the TRS-80 Model 100 Series with a ReMem ROM (http://www.bitchin100.com) that allows for task switching, 2MB RAM, and file transfers with a Linux or Windows PC (John Hogerhuis is an amazing developer who has written all of this code!).

They don't surf the web easily, but they can do mail, and the Model 100 or WP-2 can write articles which you can submit in .RTF format by hooking up to your PC.

Unfortunately, Web Browsing isn't going to be anything less than painful on an 8-bit machine due to the increased use of graphics. However, emailing, mp3, and article writing are possible

What he describes here is very similar to what they are doing with the OLPC project. The UI that he is describing is nothing new and Sugar is pretty close to what he is looking for.

Great article. The only thing that stuck out to me is that this thing would be a lot easier to use if it had a touchscreen built in as opposed to a pointer stick on the keyboard. I know, I know, large touchscreens are supposedly expensive, but they’re coming down in price all the time and I think they’re the wave of the future, esp if we’re talking about intuitive-to-use devices.

Of course, at that point what you’ve basically got is something like the OLPC….

One more thing–1 meg of built-in flash to contain the entire modern operating system and all apps? Are you sure you wrote that right??? Flash memory is dirt cheap at the moment, might as well give em at least a gig (not to mention you’ll probably be able to make good use of it).

Ooops, a small mistake. Obviously, that was supposed to be 1 gig.

I’m going to argue that it should be an extension of today's PDA platform. I’m thinking of a single box that would have a laptop style keyboard and pointer device(s), the suggested video output options, PDA dock, and the OS divided into the mostly-permanent core OS and field upgradeable modules. In addition, printing must be included in the USB support for this to be a viable product.

Bending the 8-bit methodology a bit, this device could include one PCIe x16 slot for a modern video card, with some of the new GPGPU capability harnessed to augment the base CPU for rendering rich web content. In the late 80's I often dreamed of doing something like this with my venerable Apple II+ and a Mac video board.

My perception is the email appliances and web TV boxes of the 90's failed largely because their application support was frozen in time. The web is not standing still. Flash must be upgradable. The PDF reader must be upgradable. Addition of a new music format (perhaps at the expense of an older format selected by the user) would be beneficial.

In my volunteer work, I refurbish trailing edge Windows PCs to give to refugee families newly settled in the USA. Win95/98 was not good for this. Each of those computers was accidentally trashed at least once or twice as the family learned how to use it, even when they had a technology savvy teenage boy in the household. It's better now that I am using Win2K, but it's still not as robust as I would like. A simple, low-cost home computer appliance similar to what is being described here could be very useful. I’m following the OLPC effort for just this reason.

P.S. Here is wild idea that would add more value to this product. Include an over-the-air DTV tuner/converter, which will be needed by many lower-income homes in the not so distant future. In this variant, you would want a detached keyboard & pointer device (preferably not IR – too clunky in my experience).

Some nice counter ideas there. I seem to spend a fair my time amount of fiddling with old machines and trying to make them into workable solutions too.

The problem with the graphics card slot ideas is that it adds cost and complexity compared to integrated solutions. This machine isn't going to be able to compete with a current level console or a PC.

I forgot include an idea about making the motherboard replaceable by a service engineer. This means that when the MK II of the device is released, it can be returned to the manufacturer to have a new MB added. This is to limit the environmental impact of upgrading something that isn't inherently modular.

Quite frankly, a PII 233mhz with a stripped down, reliable OS, IE5 and broadband internet access would still suit many people. I can't see any huge developments on the horizon that would require a machine like the Neomicro to be upgraded within the next 5-7 years.

killermike

Edited 2007-04-20 00:54

It sounds like you’re looking for hardware such as the Efika. (http://www.genesippc.com/efika.php)

That should run the kind of OS you’re looking for nicely. It already runs Linux, and there are ports of AROS and MorphOS on the way.

" We will give the machine 1 meg of internal flash based storage. This contains the OS and a small amount of user storage space."

1 Meg, wow that would be a small OS. I guess you could use Menuet.

20 years ago the Sinclair Z88 wasn't too far off these specs – imagine what could be done now!

Mine still works and I still tote it in my case for notes, drafts and text writing – with 20 hrs on 4AAs power is never a problem.

The silent keyboard is perfect for making and referring to notes in meetings.

When it dies I’ll be bereft!

Load "www.google.com",8,1

Naah, that is for the good ol’ 1541. Too advanced – replace 8 with 1 to show the "PRESS PLAY ON TAPE" prompt

I think this is more about the simplicity that epitomized the microcomputer back when 8 bit machines were in vogue, not so much the 8-bit processor.

That said, there ought to be room for simplicity here too. The OLPC Sugar concept may not be such a bad way to go.

As a thought experiment I tried to come up with another user interface that wasn't the standard WIMP design (Windows, Icons, Menus and Programs) or the Command line (Programs). I seem to recall I came up with the idea that the easiest thing to get rid of was the Window.

Make all applications full-screen, impliment some good mythical way of swapping between screens either as virtual terminals or (better) the OLPC way of having an omnipresent bar at the bottom with running applications on it…

Downsides would be no more drag’n’drop (unless it could be done with a simple ‘drop into program on the bar below), and no comparing side-by-side. Although perhaps a modifier+click on the bar below would do split-screen, but then that defeats the whole purpose of not having ambiguity about what's in focus.

Actually, I think it might be easier to do away with the ‘Program’ part and just scatter ‘create new’ buttons and a folder of documents somewhere. We can already launch programs by just opening the document associated with that program…

true, dropping programs (or rather turning them into a kind of plugin/toolbox style system) would make for something more useful…

as for comparing. make it slide in in a temporary way. maybe by hitting a hotkey or something.

there are programs out there that allows one to peel back windows to look at the windows below. something similar could work for comparing stuff. didnt amiga use a system of slideable desktops?

We must be vigilant of the Cylon threat. The more complicated our software becomes, the wider the door the Cylons have to infiltrate our systems. Simple, 8-bit systems are capable of calculating jump coordinates, yet are simple enough for a programmer to have a good grasp of any back-door implications.

Dude, you like, SO posted what I was going to say!

1 MB of flash memory is absolutely, way more than enough to store an operating system AND its apps. Try to move past the current trend where an app needs several KB of code just to start up, let alone do anything useful. If I remember well, GeOS for C64 came on… two or three disks, which meant about 200 KB and it had quite about everything Windows 3.1 had.

The only problem here would be with personal file storage and data caching, but still, at 128 MB of flash space, most users of such a machine would instantly become agoraphobic.

The end result would greatly depend on what you expect as an end-user, but to be fair, there are a lot of users who wouldn't mind *some* limitations. I could still do some bloody good work on something like the Mac Classic — and if it were to be manufactured again, it would be really cheap.

From the standpoint of someone else who lived through the era, I think the author gets a number of things wrong.

* For starters, as another poster noted, the author isn't really talking about ‘8-bit microcomputers’ here. His description doesn't apply at all to the CP/M S-100 machines that started the whole microcomputer revolution; and while it may technically be true of major influences like the TRS-80 and Apple ][, both machines (especially the Apple ][) were used far more often with disk drives and a DOS than without. (I can just imagine an anthropomorphized TRSDOS or DOS 3.3 looking down at MS-DOS and saying, "Sonny, in MY day…" ;>) I’d say ‘home computer’ (which was a fairly-well defined term at the time to refer to machines like the Atari 800, C-64, CoCo, TS/1000, TI 99/4A, Coleco Adam) is a lot closer to what he's thinking of.

* Saying that home computers were somehow more ‘user-friendly’ because of their simplicity is at best an exaggeration. The whole reason GUIs *became* popular is because people found them more obvious and intuitive to use. Remember the sensation caused by Pinball Construction Set, one of the first (if not the first) mass-market GUI programs? I do, and in a lot of ways it was a major revolution.

(As another example, the Epson QX-10 came out a little earlier than the original Macintosh and tried a different road to user-friendliness, using a special keyboard with dedicated task-oriented keys and a bitmapped mostly-WYSIWYG display for its word processor. It also failed, though part of that may have been trying to run its system – called HASCII, IIRC – on an 8-bit Z-80, resulting in several complaints about its speed.)

* I won't even get in to the hassles of finicky tape drives, CLOAD, or typing in BASIC listings here. Let's just say I welcomed disk drives with open arms. ;>

Fast-forwarding to the present day…

Yes, the idea of a dedicated ‘computer appliance’ does have its appeal, and PDAs show a possible path to follow, as does the Internet Appliance. WebTV is another take on the idea. However, PDAs are (unfortunately) a dying breed, the smartphones taking their place are getting right back into that ‘overcomplex’ territory, and Internet Appliances and WebTV all flopped. A potential computing appliance would have to avoid the same pitfalls.

Also, there would need to be some way to upgrade the software to deal with a changing computing environment; the web browser in particular would just about HAVE to be upgradeable, as often as the tag soup gets changed.

Edited 2007-04-18 21:57

I keep reading about Geos and the like, but it was essentially what we have today – a desktop gui that relies on either keyboard shortcuts or using a mouse.

If you want to simplify computing you have to start with simplifying the input. The keyboard and mouse aren't natural means of input, but your fingers and speech are. You should be able to point with your finger at what you want on the screen ie. press the "globe" icon for the Internet, the "envelope" icon for mail etc. Also, at the very least the computer should speak back to you. Rather than reading pages of emails, just let the computer read them to you. My Newton 2000 does this with 4meg of ram, 4 meg of OS ROM and a 200Mhz StrongARM.

What the 8 bit era showed us was simplicity. It can still be achieved, but with the enhancements in technology that is available today.

Eight-bit CPUs normally use an 8-bit data bus and a 16-bit address bus which means that their address space is limited to 64 kibibytes.

The author don't really want a 8 bits computer. He just want a SIMPLE STRAIGHTFORWARD TV that can work like computer.

Sixteen bit home computers such as the Commodore Amiga

The Amiga was base on the 68000 series from Motorola. All are all 32 bit CPUs.

I think you meant the Commodore 64?

No. Within the computer industry the terms 8, 16 and 32 bit computing took on colloquial meanings which are still in widespread use.

True, the 68000 offers the programmers 32 bit data registers, but bear in mind that a processor such as the 6502 series has 8bit X and Y index registers along with a 16bit accumulator. Also, machines of that 6502 or z80 machines had a greater than 8 bit addressing range (that would be 256 bytes). However, I doubt that many people would refer to machines like the ZX Spectrum, Apple II or C64 as being "16 bit machines".

To see my point, try searching for "16 bit computing" on google or the wikipedia. Such a search returns hits for machines such as the Sega Megadrive (Genesis), Amiga and Atari ST.

Killermike

Edited 2007-04-20 01:18

@ALL:

Killermike wrote:

(as taken from the first page)

>>>

Sixteen bit home computers such as the Commodore Amiga and early PCs also occupy a now extinct link in the evolutionary chain.

>>>

You expressd a very strange strange concept here.

Because ONLY early PC's were 16 bit CPUs!!!

Amiga, Atari and Apple Macintosh share the same Motorola 68000 CPU.

68000 CPU were externally at 16bit and internally calculated at 32bit.

So there were no 16 bit era for Motorola.

There were double trees, one for 8086 8bit->16bit and another evolutionary tree for 68000 16/32->full32.

8086 tree then evolved into 16bit 8088 80826, and 32bit 80836, 80846, that are at 32 bit, but are a direct evolution of 16 bit.

There are evolution relicts in these CPUs which proof they are a direct evolution from 8086:

For example LIMITS IN THE NUMBER OF INTERRUPTS.

Limits of Interrupts are also buried in the guts of PENTIUM processors.

Pentium family it is a totally new concept.

But it has some relicts of 8086 age hidden into its guts as long as it could be in us humans a sort of APPENDICITIS or COCCIGIS bone (the last bone of the spine) which is a relict of the age in which humans had tails like other little mammals.

PowerPC family for example was a total new concept CPU design.

It had nothing in common with 68000 family. but now PowerPC family has been almost extinct.

Only "actual" Amiga still are on the market and farithful to PPC design.

From this point of view seems my dear Killermike you are stucked with 8bit, you are a really 8bit CPU lover but know nothing of real history of computing.

From your statement seems that CLASSIC PC or classic Amiga was extinct as long as 16 bit PCs…

But along with Amiga are now extinct also Atari and CLASSIC Macintosh…

And I can sure affirm this because actual Macintosh is not a direct evolution of 68000, nor from PPC version.

So Macintosh have extincetd twice.

The first generation Macintosh to die was 68000 design ones.

The second generation Macintosh built on PPC has nothing in common with ANCIENT Macintoshes.

They were built around PPC and have programs to EMULATE 68000 There is nothing of 68000 in second generation macintoshes.

There are no relicts of ancient Motorola 68000 family structure into PPCs.

Actual Macintosh and MacOS it is only a INTELX86 OS, born on top of X86 hardware running into a modified FREEBSD Unix like OS, which of ancient Macintosh has only the GUI design.

So it is a newly concept OS, born on top of most vital tree of evolution.

It just shares AND PREDATES the aspect of old Macs just for a sort of ADAPTATION to the same abient, as long as all flying animals share the wings (birds, bats, insects, pterosauri)…

But sure old Motorola 68000 Macs are extinct, and PPC mactintoshes are also extinct.

I hope you all and Killermike could understtod my point, and the concept I explained.

There is no real EVOLUTION from old MACs to modern ones, just a parallel re-design implemented on different processors.

To share an example also actual Amigas have nothing in common with their predecessors.

Again old Amiga 68000 programs run into new Amigas just under EMULATION.

It is the same situation as old Motorola MAcs were emulated into PPC Macs, and now PPC Macs were emulated into INTEL CORE DUO macintoshes.

It is only the BRAND NAME which remaions equal, and the GUI ASPECT…

Any legacy with eleder machines it is ALWAYS DROPPED at any new hardware generation.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE CONCEPT?

Please study history and re-write your article, if you desire to receive attention.

Edited 2007-04-19 09:43

@ ALL @ Killermike.

Be happy! Your prayers about MODERN PC 8bit processor based are been answered by God!

There is a beautiful woman who is a talented hardware geek! Her name is Jeri Ellsworth.

She also created in 2000 the first 24bit graphic card for C64:

http://www.dickestel.com/expo2000.html

http://www.dickestel.com/images/expo7.jpg

http://www.dickestel.com/images/expo8.jpg

Then she created two great products.

The first is C64DTV embedded in a Joystick chassis and sold by the new Commodore International from Holland.

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B00094OCUG.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

The second product it is an evolution of C64, and it is called CommodoreONE.

It is sold as concept computer.

You can find it at this store:

http://www.jschoenfeld.com/indexe.htm

Or directly at site:

http://www.c64upgra.de/c-one

Features of C=ONE

The C-One computer is a 2003 enhanced adaptation of the Commodore 64 -while retaining almost all of the original's capabilities the C-One adds modern features, interfacing and capabilities and is a sorely needed fill for a gap in the hobbyist computer market.

The price is 269,- EUR with 65816 CPU (including German sales tax.

(user need to supply ATX case and power supply, drive(s), PS/2 keyboard, mouse, memory and SVGA monitor.)

Features

· The CommodoreOne is a motherboard ready to mount into an ATX style computer case. Ports match the holes of the case, except for audio connectors, which do not fit without mechanical modification of the case.

Power

· Connectors on the C=One are ATX style. The C-one board is designed for an ATX power supply. Ready to be ‘laptop/portable capable’, such as startup of the machine from two voltages only (3.3V and 5V), and diskless operation.

· ATX ‘powerdown’ can be controlled by software.

CPU/Speed

· The processor of the C1 is a 65c816 processor running at 20 MHz. The 65c816 is a 6502 compatible processor with a 24 bit address range and extra instructions that access the full memory range.

The C-One has a processor slot for any other 8-bit CPU such as a real 6502, Z80, 6809 or even the Z8S180.

· Software throttle to match 64 speed.

· The system bus runs up to 105Mhz, the 50/60 hz CIA clock of the system is provided by internal circuitry.

SuperVIC Video Capabilities

· VGA monitor output

· VIC-II compatible in all video modes 60hz/50hz emulation is software selectable.

· Classic Emulation & SuperVIC Mode is software selectable

· Extended video modes as well as combination modes with classic VIC-II modes are possible.

· Memory addresses of features (character matrix, screen memory, color RAM, etc.) are each 24 bit addressable (except for the color palette which resides inside the chip's memory)

· up to 128MB multimedia memory for graphics, music and copper data

· Max Resolution 1280×1024 Sync settings from 60hz-? (depends of resolution)

· Maximum of 256 colors out of a palette of 65,535

· Video expansion connector for digital and analog video expansions

MonsterSID Audio

· Classic SID Emulation (including address mirroring)

· Monster SID Mode

· 16 stereo SID voices (1-8 left, 9-16 right)

· Extra voices mapped in order after the first three

· DMA audio

· 8 Stereo voices (4 left, 4 right)

· up to 128MB multimedia memory used for sound or instruments, as well as access to main CPU memory for playing DMA clips.

· Variable sample playback rate.

· Audio resolution of 16 bits (CD quality oversampling DAC)

· DMA segment playback can be either continuous (loop) or one-shot (note/segment)

· two sockets for classic SID chips, Monster SID audio can be routed through their analog filters (prpared for more analog audio routing)

Memory

· Computer Memory is a standard SD-Ram module of up to 1GB size, multimedia memory of up to 128MB is a standard SIMM module. Minimum is 4MB of multimedia memory and 16M main memory.

· complete multimedia memory can be used for Monster SID (DMA Audio or Instrument clips.)

· The System has a boot ROM of 512K which contains the early startup procedure divided into 128k and 384k user space for one main core and OS

· Main OS storage can also be Compact Flash media or harddrives to hold the C-One operating system(s) as well as cores and rom images. There is no limit to card capacity. FAT filesystem is supported, so simple data transfer from PCs is given.

Internal I/O

· 3.5″ floppy drive connector with 1581 emulation (using PC drive) with 64k RAM

· Capable** of supporting MFM 720/1.4/2.8 capacity drives via software (WD1772 compatible)

· IDE Interface with DMA support**

· Compact Flash Media Slot (see ‘Memory’ above)

· TTL level digital video interface (for example to drive an LCD screen)

Internal Expansion

· C64 compatible Cartridge Slot

· Up to two PCI connectors (factory-stuffed only one)

· Capability to configure C1 system chip settings externally

· two Amiga 1200 compatible clock-ports for expansion

· Geek Port (Whatever spare lines are left)

External Interfacing

· PS/2 Keyboard port with either Commodore-64 matrix emulation (configurable) or raw data access

· Joystick lines can also be emulated via keyboard

· PS/2 Mouse with 1351 emulation and bi-directional communication support.

· IEC Serial Connector supporting Commodore VIC/64/264/128 drives and printers.

· 2 Joystick Ports (Paddles supported with classic SID chips installed)

· PC-style DB25 Parallel port (can act as C64 userport with adapter)

Image of C=ONE

http://c64upgra.de/c-one/pics/portrait.jpg

The new processor at 20 MHz, the monster SID for audio, 256 colors out of 65000, quite normal PS2 keyboard and mouse, IDE interface, 2 PCI slots.

And in the recent it also gained FPGA co-processor, completely programmable. The fact you can run it as C64, C 128, or emulate a vaste number of elder 8bit machines makes this machine really incredible.

http://c64upgra.de/c-one/pics/FPGA_extender_proto.jpg

It also runs a vaste number of OSes, such as GEOS, Contiki, AND EVEN WINDOWS CE!

Edited 2007-04-19 12:04

Also a very nice, cheaper and more modern alternative to the C-ONE is the CPC-TREX computer:

http://www.symbos.de/trex.htm

It's much cheaper than the C-ONE and the OCM (new MSX), provides all modern important connectors and includes a complete working 8bit-computer core.

It is even optimized for the SymbOS windows 8bit operating system and can run in a special turbo-mode.

The C-ONE is completely outdated and too expensive. Jerry made its deathblow by releasing the DTV64.

@ Denator

You wrote:

>>>

The C-ONE is completely outdated and too expensive. Jerry made its deathblow by releasing the DTV64.

>>>

C64DTV has no expansion slot, no keyboard, and no capabilities to run any external drive.

At least a modern and modified version of it then it could, but has never being released into the market…

CPC Trek you signalled is not so expandable as CommodoreONE.

(perhaps a second version of CPC-Trek it will overcome C=One, but actually it can't)

If you read it well C=ONE has:

– standard C64 cartridge slot (can connect ehternet and other thingies)

– Amiga clockports (are so efficient to allow to connect expansion cards)

– 2 PCI slots (this is very interesting)…

– C=ONE also uses standard ram slot and could mount RAM modules upto 128 megabytes

– And finally has connectors adapters to mount various original 8 bit CPUs…

I think this all bonanza it is worth the price…

Edited 2007-04-20 18:00

There is a beautiful woman who is a talented hardware geek! Her name is Jeri Ellsworth.

Some nice links there and some nice info.

Yes, I had read about Jeri before. She may just be my dream woman 😉

Another advantage of the sort of this sort super C64 hardware is that features such as SID sound bring with them a lot of character.

killermike

Edited 2007-04-20 01:37

Buy a Playstation.

Seriously, 8-bits? FLASH is already coming out in 16GB sticks! The memory limit comes to mind as a show stopper. There is absolutely no reason one couldn't aim for 16-bits and use a true multi-processor core. It would be absolutely trivial for them to come up with a variable frequency front-side bus, low stage count 1.0 GHz+ 16-bit core containing 4 cpu's, software-emulated sound and video processor functionality through the cores, and a multiple channel 16-bit memory controller.

It could aim for simple pda buttons to keep costs down. Need more? Then add mouse and keyboard with blue tooth. The only wire connector could be mini-usb. Why re-invent the wheel here?

Edited 2007-04-19 23:58

Genesis Efika + keyboard + psu + case + morphos?

I think there are many good and relevant thoughts in this article but to be fair I agree there is not really a need to go back to 8 bit…

The really interesting points are in the "easy to use and understand" OS/GUI – RISC had a lot of that and would be a good base to work with… OS in ROM or perhaps here Read Only Flash (or read only to the user… perhaps writable for system updates from the server?)

The biggest problem many beginners and "don't care to learn" sorts have is correctly identified as the multitasking multiwindow GUI environment where they often cannot understand the "focus" idea.

Just an aside here – my 6 year old daughter has grown up using Mac OS X and has no problem with grasping the mulitwindow environment or the focus, I have never bothered to make use of the "Simple Finder" which pretty much makes the Mac into a one application full screen at a time OS/GUI in in the manner of System 6 or earlier Macs. My other daughter is 2, she still can become confused if the window she is using loses focus – but when she is playing I am there and simply help show her how to get back the window she wants – very soon she will be as competent as her sister…

So to be fair Mac OS has options to make this irrelevant already – but we are talking ultra cheap here right? Not taking a premium workstation and dumbing it down. I like the reversion to the old "one box" C64/Amiga/Spectrum idea for a machine of this type, but mucking about connecting to a TV? Please…

In many ways I see the form of the emate or early laptops here – most of OS News’ readers could make up something like this out of some old kit and a simple low power OS… but they don't have the nice modern connections or the use of flash memory etc.

But here is the rub that all us computer loving geeks have conveniently overlooked – I know lots of families who "would really love a computer for the kids and that…" and I have often offered to give them free and gratis a workable Celeron or PIII (or the like) in the 700-900MHz range with a nice easy Linux as a starter to find their feet on and frequently even offered to install it and show them how to use it for a couple of bottles of wine. After the initial interest they usually decide to trek off to PC World (read Comp USA or Best Buy I guess) and hock themselves up to the eyes to buy a Dell or something that has more bells and whistles than they have any idea what to do with. Why do they do this? Because the TV and the man down the pub and the salesperson tells them they need the latest thing… Until you can undo that "consumerist" ideal then the idea of a set top box/cut down console/internet appliance PC will fail commercially just like all the previous ones…

Me – I want a DS Style Apple internet appliance that I can use to connect with my desktop machines from pretty much anywhere (and no the iPhone is not it)…

I think such a neo-micro could have a market, but it would need real mass production to get the cost sufficiently down, probably around 100K units minimum. The reason is that the initial development cost far exceeds that of yet another Windows laptop.

In some ways, the neo-micro shares goals and features with the $100 laptop project: It as about a cheap, robust, easy-to use computer that has only the most essential features. The main differences are that the neo-micro can assume you have mains power and a TV, so you don't need a buil-in screen, battery and crank handle.

A few suggestions about the design:

– There is no need for a memory card slot if you have USB: You can use USB flash keys for storage. They are cheap and ubiquitous and you are more likely to be able to transfer to or from a "normal" PC.

– Don't have a laptop-style tiny joystick in the middle of the keyboard. Use a somewhat bigger (rheumatism-friendly) flat joystick-pad (sort of like on the iPod) and put it below the space bar. And make room enough below the space bar for hand rest.

– Base text editing on HTML as internal format. This is very portable and has enough features for even semi-advanced texts. And it allows editing of simple web content.

Exterior Wall Systems Market Detail Analysis focusing on Application, Types and Regional Outlook 2032

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